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Joe
Davis: Korean War Interview
by Joanne McMillen (Midwest City Rotary Club Interview) Interview
Date: May 2004
Q:
Joe, when and where were you born? A:
I was born in Okmulgee, Oklahoma on March 8, 1932. Q:
OK. You answered the first question very easily! When did people first
begin thinking that the US might get involved in Korea? A:
Ah, I guess it was in the early ‘50s. Ah, the war was always kind of a
mystery to me. I’m not sure that it was the Korean War. It seemed like they
had more Red Chinese coming across the borders than anybody else. Q:
Ah-huh. A:
And the full reason for the war was – I really don’t know – other
than – I probably realize a lot more today what it might be. The North Koreans
really were militaristic people – always have been. And they always preyed on
the Southern Koreans who did all the work – raised all the crops and, ah, did
all the things to make money. And they thought that if they could prey upon
somebody and take away from them, well, that was better for them. Q:
Ah-huh. Ah-huh. A:
And I think the same is, ah, that is for sure so today and I think it was
probably the same thing back in those days. Q:
Did this kind of – you addressed some of this, but I’ll ask the
question – was the war expected or did the war and the US involvement come as
a surprise? A:
Oh, I think that the US being Big Brother wants to protect everybody and
they were trying to be – the South Korean people were going to be overrun by
the north and they had made the feelings
to the, I’m sure, our state department, and, ah, it became just part of our
policies to go out and protect everybody and that’s what we did. Q:
Ah-huh. How
old were you when the Korean War broke out? A:
Well, let’s see. I was, ah, in the – see what year did the war itself
actually really get started? Somewhere around 1952, I guess, wasn’t it? I
believe that’s right. So I would have been about 20 years old. Q:
OK. Were you in the military at the time? A:
No, I was not in the military. I was going to college, ah, at the
University of Oklahoma. And this was back in the days of the draft. And I had a
draft deferment, and, ah, I attended the University of Oklahoma from 1950 until
the spring of 1953 – I went there for three years. Then in the summer of ’53
I left and, ah, I had been in engineering school for two years and then went
over to the business school the third year, and I enjoyed it. I went to – had
a friend that was a fraternity brother of mine at the University of Oklahoma and
he had a sister who lived in Wichita, Kansas, and they thought that, that, ah,
my fraternity brother-roommate and I should move to Kansas and go to work for
Boeing Aircraft, which we did do. And in 1953 I was a cost accountant at Boeing
Aircraft and was going to go to school at University of Wichita and keep my
deferment. I quickly found out that working 40 hours a week swing-shift and
trying to maintain a full-load to keep Uncle Sam away from you, ah, is not a
workable solution or situation – it wasn’t for me, anyway. So, ah, ah, I
left Kansas and I did enroll in school and dropped everything and then I was
drafted in – let me see, here – I guess it was March – April, May, June,
July – March, April – I guess somewhere around April of 1954 – drafted. Q:
Ah-huh. A:
The Korean War was going full blast, and, ah, I didn’t have the
slightest idea what was going to happen to me the day I was drafted. All I knew
that the local draft board, number 57, and a lady by the name of – the head
lady of it, whose name was Evelyn Garrison and she was glad to get me – it
helped fill her quota (laughter). Q:
There you go! A:
I will never forget her name. Q:
Ah-huh A:
As you can see. Q:
Definitely. It’s interesting that you remember that.
Now this next question isn’t appropriate, but I’ll read it anyway.
Were you a World War II veteran? If so, how did that impact your thoughts? A:
No. Q:
You were too young. You stated that you were drafted. What branch of the
military did you serve in? A:
I was in the army. Q:
OK. A:
And they were drafting basically for army and marine. I had, while
attending University of Oklahoma I was in air force ROTC, and, ah, the first two
years is what they call basic, and then the last two years was called advanced
ROTC – Reserve Officer Training Corps. And, ah, if you’re going into
advanced, you had to be one of two things – you either had to be in med school
or was going to be a pilot. They did not want anybody else in the air force.
They didn’t have room for them. Q:
Ah-huh. A:
So, ah, I was – my grades were good enough. I was ready to go to
advanced ROTC, and, ah, ah, as far as I knew I could be a pilot. Ah, those days
I was, like 5’8” and weighed about 135 pounds and I figured I could fit in
about anything. So, they sent me up to Tinker Air Force Base for a – what they
called a pre-flight physical. And, ah, I went through – started with the eyes
first and I went in and they checked for my eyes – my depth perception and
everything and everything was just fine. And they said, “That’s fine,
you’re out of here.” So I got up and right as I was walking out the door,
they said, “Oh, wait a minute. Come back here. We forgot to check you for
colorblindness.” And when they did, I could read about three of twenty-five
cards. So, needless to say, I was colorblind and their statement was, “Not
only will you not fly and airplane, you can’t even ride in one of them.” Q:
(laughter) A:
So, I was not able to continue my ROTC, but my grades were good enough to
kept me – kept me out of school. Q:
Did that background impact your placement when you were in the army –
when you were drafted in the army? A:
Probably did. It probably did. In, ah, everybody that was drafted out of
Oklahoma City were sent to Fort Bliss, Texas. And, ah, the first two weeks,
you’re in a receiving company and, ah, you’re going through a battery of
testing. And, ah, depending on what your scores were, ah, it was pretty well the
fields that they put you over into. Ah, my scoring was good enough to where they
put me over into the signal corps . . . Q:
Ah-huh. A:
And, ah, that’s – at the end of basic training, ah, that’s where I
went was to, ah, at the time, Camp Gordon, Georgia. I was there a total sum of
two weeks in the school. I got married, ah, right out of basic training and, ah,
between basic training and going into Camp Gordon, Georgia, and two weeks after
I’d been there they called me out one day asked me if, ah, I’d like to be an
instructor at Camp Gordon, Georgia in the signal school. Ah, I hadn’t even –
the school was either eight or sixteen weeks, and I just got started, and I
said, “Yes, I just got married and that’d be fine.” And, ah, I was a
teacher at, um, the – what they called “Tussie,” the Southeastern Signal
School, for, ah, oh, a number of months. It was, ah, I belonged to an instructor
company and, ah, we taught school eight hours a day in classrooms. Q:
Ah-huh. A:
And, ah, they were just plain old army two-story buildings just kind of
like the old barracks that you see. And, ah, we – our heat was with, ah,
coal-fired furnaces, and we’d go down and stoke up the furnace – take turns
and we’d take turns in the – in the area that we taught in. Mine was
basically a signal message clerk and teletype operator. The people that I was
teaching – their second week in the school, and an interesting things about it
– I didn’t even complete the second week in school before they yanked me out
to make me an instructor. Q:
Ah-huh. Interesting. A:
Yes, very, very interesting. Q:
I think you’re earlier background played in with that. A:
Yea. Q:
You may have addressed some of the questions I’m going to read later,
but I’ll read through them anyway just to make sure we get all that
information. What were your personal feelings about going off to war? What were
your feelings in regard to communism and the anxieties and tensions it created
in the United States? A:
Ah, I had had a military deferment going to college. I was not crazy
about being drafted. Ah, needless to say – I did not enlist. So when I was
drafted, ah, that was kind of fate, and, ah, I always put it – and I told the
lady down at the draft board, Ms. Evelyn Garrison, “Well, I hope you’re
happy. You finally caught me!” So, ah, I was drafted, and what was going to
happen to me, I did not know. Ah, I did not know. I had a lot of friends, ah,
that had gone into the – the Camp Gordon, Georgia in the Signal School that
did go to Korea and worked in the communication centers, either as signal
message clerks or teletype operators. And, ah, when they told me that they would
make me an instructor there at Camp Gordon, Georgia, and I’d just been married
a couple of weeks, ah, that was fine with me. I knew I would not be going to
Korea. And that was fine also. Q:
Ah-huh. What were your thoughts about communism? A:
Ah, at the time, ah, communism was present, ah, but, ah, it didn’t seem
to bother me that much, ah, in those days. Q:
OK. It was . . A:
It was there. . . Q:
. . .another place. A:
Yes, it was somewhere else. It wasn’t – it wasn’t around me. Q:
What were the feelings of your friends and acquaintances about the war? A:
Ah, I don’t know of anybody that was anxious to go to Korea. The
conditions were deplorable. When they were in the signal corps they knew that
they would not be up in an infantry group on the front lines. They knew they
would be in a support section somewhere. And, ah, most of the people that we
turned out went all over the world, ah, in the different communication centers.
Ah, but I would imagine that probably at least fifty percent of those at Camp
Gordon, Georgia went directly to, ah, Korea, and were working in field
communication centers. Q:
Ah-huh. Ah-huh. The next question asks if all the people you knew wanted
to join the military and serve. So, it’s like most of them were drafted? A:
Yes. Yes. There were very, very few, well I refer to them as RA –
regular army. If you joined the army or marines, ah, you had a, your first two
digits of your serial number was RA. Those that were drafted, your first two
digits was US. My number was US54155534. So, ah, the, mostly those that were RA
were young people that had not gone to college. They were not educated, and they
were looking for something to do. A lot of them were also people that had gotten
in trouble with the law and the law says “It might be best that you go join
the army.” Q:
Ah-huh. A:
And that is what happened to a lot of the people that went in. Where they
went, ah, I would say that most of the people that were fighting, ah, on the
front lines, ah, were in the infantry brigades, were, ah, people with a lower
IQ. They were placed in school in the signal school. You had to have an IQ of at
least 110 to get into the school, but as – towards the latter period of the
time that I was there, they had dropped that down and we were actually having
students with IQs of 86 and 90 and 92 coming through. And it was very, very
difficult trying to teach people with that type of IQ. Q:
Ah-huh. A big range is what I’m hearing. A:
Yes. Yes. Q:
How did your
family and your wife feel about you being in the war? A:
It was just part of life and, ah, I got married right out of basic
training and my wife – since I was going to be in an instructor company, she
was very happy that she could come to Atlanta, or rather Augusta, Georgia, and,
ah, actually Augusta, Georgia was our honeymoon for the time that I was there. Q:
Did you know that was in the plans before you got married? A:
No, not really. Q:
Ah-huh. A:
Not really. Not really. We’d gone together for, ah, oh, probably better
than a year and, ah, it was just one of those things that happened. Ah, she was
with me while I was in Camp Gordon, Georgia. An interesting thing happened – I
met a lot of friends that I still remember and I still hear from over the United
States that was in the instructor company that I was in. Ah, we had a lot of
good laughs while we were teachers there. It was interesting, the reason that I
got called out – they had looked at people’s IQ scores and those were the
ones that they selected for teachers. I didn’t know that at the time. I
couldn’t understand why in the world that I was pulled out to, ah, to be an
instructor over there. And they pulled four of us out and all four of us,
needless to say, had the opportunity, ah, to be there, ah, sure, we would sure
take it. Q:
Ah-huh. A:
We also had, ah, an opportunity that – they had what they called a
levy, and they would place a levy down on the instructor company for personnel
to go to different military installations all over the whole world, and, ah,
they were hand-chosen – they were hand-picked, ah, they were either couriers,
ah, they worked in, ah, in the state department or in the – or they worked in
what they called an ACAN – army command and administrative network. And it was
– if you were an instructor and got levied on, you were usually going to get,
usually, a pretty good job. And after I’d been there for about a year, the
company was not making rank. Ah, I went in as a private and I come out as a
private, and, ah, they, ah, they, ah – a friend of mine that was from –
Gordon was his name – from Winston-Salem, North Carolina, come by our
apartment on Sunday evening, and he was moaning the blues. He’d gone home and
his wife was pregnant and was going to have to quit her job and he was making,
like $35.00 a month across the
board and her allotment was $91.20 a month, and he had got put on a levy, and it
was interesting – I went over with him to the, ah, to the, ah Lieutenant Bill
Haney – first lieutenant who was the commander of our company. He was from
Fort Sill, Oklahoma. And I says, “Hey, you gold old Robert Gordon on here on
orders going to Italy and his wife is pregnant and. . .” we were together, and
I says, “my wife and I would love to go to Italy” and “if you don’t
mind, just change orders for us.” And, ah, the lieutenant says “the orders
are cut. They cannot be changed.” So, Robert Gordon went to Leghorn, Italy as
a courier and carrying messages in bags, and, ah, which I’d love to go to
Italy, and my wife’s parents said they would be glad to send her to Italy and
it would have been a good vacation for us. It was sure not Korea. It was away
from everything. But about three days later they placed me on orders. They
figured I didn’t like it there, ah, to a place known as Asmara, Eritrea,
Ethiopia. I couldn’t even pronounce it! Q:
(laughter) A:
And I immediately went to the orderly room – I never was bashful about
anything – and I went in to see the first lieutenant, commander of the
company. I said, “What in the world – here I tried to leave and leave a guy
here, and now you’ve got me on orders going to a place I can’t even
pronounce.” And he said, “Well, we didn’t think that you liked it here.”
And I said, “Oh, it’s alright here, but that’s the was it is, that’s the
way it is.” He says, “You will be going to Washington and working in the
Pentagon for awhile before you even go over there, though, in the army command
and administrative network. And they will train you.” I said, “Well,
that’ll be alright.” So we got ready. We went to Washington, and I worked in
the Pentagon for, oh, a few months, and then, ah, they went ahead and placed me
on orders to go to an army command and administrative network station in Asmara,
Eritrea, Ethiopia. Which, setting on top of a mountain, Asmara was, ah, ah, a
town that, ah, Mussolini found and it was – he called it his Shangri-La. We
were setting about 7,000 feet above sea level. Never below 50, never above 80,
year round. Beautiful, beautiful climate, and I was working, ah, on, ah, on a,
ah, relay station taking messages that was coming in from Japan and the
Philippines and relaying them on to Washington on a relay station. So it was
very good training. I got to be a teletype operator. I could type better than
120 words a minute, so it was – it was very, very interesting. Q:
Did you take your wife with you? A:
No, I was unable to take her to Eritrea. There were wives there, but when
I was leaving, ah, I was, ah, they could only keep me – you could only be
drafted for a maximum of 24 months, minimum of 21 months. And when I left the
United States I had less than a year to do, and I did not supposed to be sent
over. But they got me into a transferring company, and, ah, it was a long time
– as a matter of fact, I only spent seven months over in Africa. Q:
Ah-huh. A:
In the army command and administrative network. And I made rank over
there. I made PFC so. . .and they told me, “stay one more month then we’ll
make you a corporal.” And I says, “No, I believe I’ll just pass. I’m
ready to go home.” And, ah, I had, ah, made application for an early out, ah,
for getting out on 21 months because I wanted to come back and go to college,
ah, and complete my college, which I did do. I come back and, ah, later I
completed college. Q:
Good. And your parents were supportive of you being overseas or did they
have some concerns? A:
Oh, the whole family had concern. My parents and my wife’s parents.
They all had concern, but they knew that I was going to an area that was not in
a war zone and, ah, they felt, ah, you got to do it, so you’re there, make the
best out of it. And that’s the way I always felt about it. Make the best out
of it with what you can do. Q:
OK. And you undertook basic training in Georgia? A:
No, basic training, the first, ah, first part of basic was at Fort Bliss,
Texas, ah, that’s where you have your basic training, and then your advanced
training was in signal school at Camp Gordon, Georgia. Q:
OK. After basic training,
you talked about where the military sent you. Do you want to add anything to
that? A:
I didn’t – I didn’t have any idea, ah, what – all I knew I was
going to Camp Gordon, Georgia, and I was going to be in a signal school and what
that meant, I didn’t have the slightest idea. I didn’t know that there were
cryptographers and all different things related with the signal school. I know
that there was another big part of the signal school at Fort Monmouth, New
Jersey, where they – you became a mechanic to work on the teletype, ah,
machines, and other types of communications. Q:
Ah, once again, reading through the questions. In what capacity did you
serve during the Korean War – your duty, rank, and places you served? A:
Went in as a private and come out at as PFC – an E3. And, ah, the, ah,
I think I finally got up to, ah, the wife’s allotment was still $91.20 or
$91.30 – I think it was $91.20 – and, ah, ah, when I went overseas I lost my
rations, ah, which was across the board around $30.00 also – our income was
less than $200 a month, and our apartment rent alone in Washington, D.C., was
$115.00 a month over in Falls Church, Virginia. And by the time you have to
drive back and forth to work, and, ah, try to live, you cannot live on army
salary. It will not work. Q:
Ah-huh, ah-huh. A:
So, if it hadn’t been for our folks, we would have been in serious
trouble. Q:
Ah-huh. Yea, you were fortunate to have your support with that. A:
Yup. Yes. Q:
And now, once again, just listing the place that you served? A:
Let’s see, I was – I was inducted into – in Oklahoma City, and
immediately sent to basic training in, ah, Fort Bliss, Texas. Ah, left there and
went to Camp Gordon, Georgia. Ah, was there, ah, almost a year, then left and
went to Fort Myer, Virginia, which is the army base, ah, immediately across from
the Pentagon, and worked in the Pentagon for, um, about 90 days. It was up to
120 days. Left there and, ah, took leave, brought my wife home, flew back to
Camp Kilmer, New Jersey, which was a place that they took everybody for – I
was in Camp Kilmer for about two months before I was able to get on what they
called a hop. I was flown from, ah, ah, Camp Kilmer to, ah – it was an
interesting plane trip – you’d never get to make it again. We went from
there to Lajes, Azores, and then, ah, we went to, ah, um, Tripoli, Libya. And I
was in Tripoli for a couple of days and got to go into town, into Tripoli, while
I was waiting for another flight on to Dharan, Saudi Arabia. Went to Dharan via
Cairo, Egypt, so we landed in Cairo. We didn’t get to spend much time there,
just refueled, then went on to Dharan. I was in Dharan for two weeks before I
was able to catch a hop on over to Asmara.
It was interesting – we’d have C47s and C54s was all we had in Dharan
at the time because any American plane that landed on Saudi Arabian soil became
the property of the king. We never landed a jet there up till that time. So they
sent – I went to, ah, they would send the mail plane and supplies – paper,
uniform, what-have-you – over to Asmara, then Asmara being such a beautiful
country it was, and grew all kinds of vegetables and things, they would fill it
up with, ah, vegetables and meats and send it back to Dharan to feed to people
in Dharan – come from Ethiopia. And, ah, the, ah, we had 700 army armed
security agency boys that worked there that spent full-time monitoring Moscow
Molly and all other Russian communications. Sitting 7000 feet above sea level,
the – it was a mountain iron ore, they said – it
was a wonderful communications site. And, ah, we all had – you had to have a
security clearance to be over there. And it was – it was a wonderful area to
just go to. We’d get weekend, ah, ah, we’d work 4 days for, ah, mids,
midnight till the morning, and then 4 eves, and then off 4 days, so when we’d
be off 4 days, why we’d all get together and check out a jeep or a
three-quarter ton and get us some gasoline in barrels and we’d go up to
Anglo-Egyptian Sudan or we went clear down into Axum, Ethiopia, and I saw one of
the graves where one of the Queens of Sheba had been buried. Got to, ah, find
out about the religion over there. Ah, the, ah, the Ethiopian people is where,
ah, is – some of the oldest forms of Christianity were founded right there in,
ah, Ethiopia. So, ah, it was, ah, it was very, very interesting. Q:
Ah-huh. A:
Got to go up to a place called Karun. There were 6,000 British soldiers
had been buried there from World War II. Ah, it was – it was a wonderful
experience to be over there. Away from my family was bad, but, ah, it was, ah,
completely away from the war zone. We knew exactly what was going on because
being in communications we were reading all of the communications that were
being funneled right into Washington from the Philippines, so. . . Q:
Right. And then when you left, was it the same hop back? A:
No, it was interesting coming back. Ah, the United States, ah, ah, had
broken off relations with Qadhafi. We could not land in Libya for refueling, and
we were not welcome in Egypt, in Cairo, for refueling, so we left Dharan, ah, it
was around Christmastime. We were getting bumped by officers that were wanting
to come home in front of us. And, ah, we, ah, we got on a plane – C119 navy
aircraft – and, ah, it was interesting. It was in December, and, ah, it was in
the 80s and 90s – the weather was – and they says “where you’re going
it’s going to be cold, so you better get your wools out, ah, rather than
khakis.” So we took off towards the Azores and the weather was socked in. And,
I’ve never been to Europe, but I’ve been over Europe – we flew over
Europe, right across the Mediterranean, over Europe and we landed in Prestwick,
Scotland, at 4 o’clock in the morning. We got off the airplane for breakfast.
It was, ah, 20 below zero. The wind was blowing and they had busses that picked
us up and took us down and fed us, put us back on an airplane, and we left there
to come into the United States. When we landed, ah, they gave me a plane – or
rather a train ticket and I went to, ah, let’s see, Camp Chaffee, Arkansas,
over at Fort Smith, to get mustered out. I got over there at about 8 o’clock
in the morning and had to ride a bus from the train station out there – no
wait a minute – they were there to pick us up and took us out to the base, and
told us all to get lined up and we’d get out of there. And I said, “Wait a
minute. I don’t have my 21 months in yet, so I’ve got to stay until I have
my 21 months in. I don’t want to be subject to being recalled.” So, ah, they
said, “you got any leave?” And I said, “Yep.” So I took all my leave and
come home for Christmas. And went back right after January and got, got, ah, out
of the, ah, service on January 15, 1956. Went in April 15, 1954. Spent 21 months
and one day. Q:
There you go. Made sure you met the basic requirement. A:
Yes, yes, yes. It was all statutory back in those days. Q:
OK, in terms of your own experience, under what conditions did you live?
You talked about this, but maybe you can elaborate more about the food,
clothing, what you did for recreation? A:
Well, ah, being just married, we lived in August, Georgia for awhile. And
there were four families of us that lived in a – in a, ah, apartment house,
and some of my friends from Oklahoma City, and, ah, were there, and we would,
ah, have a carpool going into the base every morning. None of us had any money,
so we walked downtown to Augusta, but it was like 30 miles out there, so then I
moved up to Thompson, Georgia, in an old, ah, converted, ah, ah, almost a barn.
And then a little later, I moved to Harlem, Georgia, which was only about 10
miles from the base, and, ah, the heating was by oil heating, and, ah, it was
expensive living, and, ah, if it was – you didn’t have any money to spend
for anything. We watched every penny that we had, and, ah, the – the
conditions of the base were very good. As a matter of fact I can say I really
enjoyed my military career anywhere that we meant. I always made the best of it,
and, ah, if it hadn’t been for being married, ah, I might have stayed a little
longer overseas, but, ah, I was ready to get home. Q:
What kind of contact did you have with people back home –
correspondence – what kind of correspondence did the military permit? A:
Ah, I was not in a – in a – the base itself was not a classified
base, but the work that we did, a lot of it was classified, and, ah, I would,
ah, if I was working midnight shift it
was usually very, very quiet. There wasn’t a lot of traffic across the wires
at that time, and, ah, I’d go over and sit down and use the teletype and I’d
just type up a, ah, a letter, and, ah, mail it out. I couldn’t send it over
the wires, but I’d just type it up and then I’d put it in an envelope and
send it home. And, ah, usually everything was about two weeks late. Ah, ah, took
about two weeks for it to go back and forth. I was having a hard time getting
my, ah, information from Oklahoma City University. That’s where I’d made
application to go to school. And, ah, supposedly I needed a letter from them to
where I was going to be accepted to go to school to get an early out. And, ah, I
finally got that, ah, but it was, ah, we had a order wire, which was voice
communication with the communication center in the Pentagon, and, since I’d
been working in the Pentagon I knew the biggest part of the people that were
working there in the com center – the military people, that is. There was lots
of civilians working there in that com center on the top floor of the Pentagon,
but, ah, ah, I would get on the order wire and we’d set there and talk and
what was going on in the United States and they wanted to know what was going on
there. And also we would have traffic with Manilla, Heidelberg, Germany, Athens,
Greece, Nicosia, Cypress, Leghorn, Italy – these were some of our
communication points. And, ah, we would talk to them on the order wire – was
typing “how’s things going where you are at?” And so we were – we were
very, very well informed of what was going on everywhere and it was – I met a
lot of very, very interesting people from all over the United States that were
there. Q:
Sounds like it. And the next question pertains to combat, but you were
not in combat? A:
No, I was not in a combat zone. Q:
What was your most memorable experience while you were in the military? A:
Oh, Gosh, the most memorable experience? Probably, ah, ah, there wasn’t
any particular item, but probably the most memorable experience was basic
training at Fort Bliss. It was in the springtime, ah, wonderful time. It was
dry, it was hot. We would march 14 miles out and 14 miles back and, ah, it was
– the basic training was very, very rigorous. And, ah, when I was through with
basic training – I’d been there, let’s see – it was 8 weeks, but I had 2
weeks in the receiver company, so about 10 weeks later when I got out, ah, to
come back home to get married, I was probably – probably one of the best
physical conditions of my life. Good food, constant food, hard work, ah, very,
very interesting, ah, ah, what all was going on there. A lot of people from
Oklahoma was in the same company that I was in, so I met people from all over
the state. And we had, ah, ah, . . . but any particular item, probably, going
daily over to the Pentagon, working, and as you’re walking outside your arm is
worn out saluting generals and admirals because you had a lot of hierarchy there
working in the Pentagon, and it was very, very impressive. I guess that was –
probably impressed me more than about anything. Q:
Have those experiences impacted your life? A:
Oh, yes. Yea, they have, ah, the, ah, I think that if every red-blooded
American boy would do a, ah, two-year term in the army it would do him some
good. I saw a lot of people that went in that were mostly out of Chicago and New
York City that was completely unmanageable and they did not want to be, ah, they
didn’t like the regime or being regimented – they didn’t like that at all.
But they learned real quick that they could go over to the stockade if they
didn’t want to behave themselves. And, ah, it would straighten people up in a
hurry. And I think it would be very, very good for, ah, not only men, but we
had, ah, towards the last that I was an instructor at Camp Gordon, Georgia, we
had a lot of women coming through there – teletype operators. They were
excellent. And it was a good tour of duty for them. And the only thing that –
we had a few of them that came through that – women – that, ah, they were
court-ordered to go to the military because they’d got themselves in all kinds
of trouble and they thought they could skate by, well they couldn’t. It was
tough on them. Q:
Ah-huh. A:
But it would be good for everybody to do it – spend a stint in the
army. Q:
The next question asks how long you served in Korea.
Now you were in the military for 21 months. A:
Twenty-one months and one day. Never got to Korea. Q:
But you were in Ethiopia for how long? A:
I was in Ethiopia about seven months – seven months, maybe eight at the
most. Supposed to have been there a year. Very, very interesting country.
Learned a lot. Learned a lot. Q:
It’s expanding to travel to different countries. A:
Yes, yes, well, you were in Africa, you know what I’m saying. Q:
Ah-huh. Definitely. After
serving, where did the military send you or were you immediately discharged? A:
Yes, when I came back to Camp Chaffee, Arkansas, I took the rest of my
leave and then I was discharged. Q:
What kind of reception did you receive when you got back to the US? Were
people – not just family, but just people in the community? A:
People in the community really cared less. They really cared less. The,
ah, my family was glad that I was back, but, ah, it was – when I got back I
immediately went into the building business on my own. And, ah, in 1956 I
started – I got out in January of ’56 and I started building houses in
’56. Built 5 houses that year. In ’57, I was expanding in the building
business, and, ah, so, ah, I, ah, well the reception that I got was “well,
good, you’ve got your military obligation and . . .” And that’s, by the
way, what that was referred to. “You’ve got your military obligation out of
the way, ah, you need to get back and get your butt to work, so. . . and
that’s about the way it was. Q:
Took care of business. They saw that you had taken care of business? A:
Yes, exactly right. Q:
In terms of your war experiences, how did those experiences affect, if at
all, your relations and interactions with your family, friends, spouse and/or
girlfriend? A:
Well, being married – getting married while I was in the service, my
wife learned a lot about the service. She would have never have dreamed that it
was the way it was. And, ah, the – as I used the phrase a minute ago, I
completed my military obligation, and that’s the way people looked at it back
then. Since we did have a draft, and since the only way you could evade it was
being 4F and there was nothing wrong with my physically, and, it was only a
matter of time that I was going to be in the service, and I did not care about
joining, and, ah, I could not become an officer because I was not a pilot or a
doctor. So, ah, I could have transferred over to the army ROTC program, but the
one at the University of Oklahoma was – the officers were in the field
artillery. They were sent directly down to Fort Sill, Oklahoma and the biggest
(end of side one of tape – begin side two). . .They were sent to, ah, Fort
Sill and they became foreign observers and that was, ah, setting – you would
crawl in behind enemy lines and, ah, by telephone, direct artillery fire right
on top of the enemy. And, ah, I did not care about being a foreign observer. The
foreign observers were second lieutenants whose, ah, lifespan in combat was not
measure in hours, but measured in minutes. So, I was not interested in being in
the artillery or in the infantry of Uncle Sam’s army. Q:
I can appreciate that. A:
Yea. Q:
This question talks about your interactions with family and friends, and
if you don’t mind, I wonder – you mentioned you got married shortly after
you were drafted. Was that because you were drafted or did you have plans of
marriage already? A:
No, no. We had been going together for better than a year, and, ah, it
was just one of those things. We had corresponded, either by telephone or by
letter, while I was in basic training, and I didn’t have the slightest idea of
where I was going to be going or what I was going to be doing. And two weeks
before, ah, basic training was over I found out that I was going to be going to,
ah, to Camp Gordon, Georgia, and I was going to be in the signal school, and I
was not going to be going directly to Korea, as the way they were sending a lot
of them – putting them over in the infantry or artillery. And, ah, it was –
I knew I was going to be gone for a couple of years, and it was just one of
those things that my wife and I decided that – talking on the telephone that,
ah, “well, if we’re going to get married, let’s just do it, ah, at
the end of basic training, and then maybe you can go with me down to, ah, to
Georgia,” and that’s exactly what we did and it was all planned that way,
and, ah, we, ah, that’s just the way it was. Q:
OK. Do you still keep in touch with some of the people you served with? A:
Oh, yes, yea, I do. It’s interesting. People that I, that I was in the
army with, a lot of them are dead, ah, now, but I still hear from some of them.
And, ah, I guess one of the most important things, or one of the most
interesting things, ah, the – the people that are either Eritrean or Ethiopian
are a different – different group of people – and I can spot them. And –
it’s kind of like the different Indian tribes, ah, if you’re around Indian
tribes for an extended period of time you get to know, ah, ah, them and what
tribe they belong to just by looking at them. And, ah, it gets to be very
interesting. I was in Washington a number of times with being a national vice
president of the Home Builders’ Association, and if you get in a cab in
Washington, more than likely the cab driver will be from Asmara, Eritrea,
Ethiopia, or from Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. And, ah, I can – I can spot them –
I can tell by their facial features, ah, by their color, ah, by their lips, ah,
they have – the Eritreans have, ah, finer lips than some of the other natives
from that area, and, ah, they’re very polite people, and, ah, ah, I can, ah, I
still can speak some of the native tongues, and I will start speaking to them in
their native tongues and they will slam on their breaks and turn around and say
“Wa?” And the “wa” means “what’s this all about?” Q:
Ah-huh. A:
That is an expression they have – “wa.” Q:
Ah-huh. A:
And, ah, as a matter of fact I was in Las Vegas here just a few months
ago, and I was going by cab from downtown Las Vegas out to the strip, and, ah,
we got in, and, ah, I looked at the driver, and I says “You’re Eritrean?”
And he looked at me very strangely and says “How did you know?” I said “I
just thought you were.” And he was from Addis Ababa. And I never got down to
Addis, but that was the capitol of Ethiopia. But it’s interesting, ah, how you
get to know a complete dialect of people, ah, and, and, and can recognize them. Q:
Sure. Sure. A:
Yea. Q:
I can appreciate that personally. What
kinds of general observations and conclusions do you have about the Korean War
and your experiences? A:
Ah, the Korean War was a – it was a political nightmare. And, ah, the
same as the Vietnamese War – it was a political nightmare. And, ah, ah, we
cannot be Big Brother to everybody. We can’t protect everybody. Although, I
guess it is nice to be able to do that, you can’t – we can’t afford to do
it anymore. And, ah, ah, we’re going through problems today. We’re scattered
all over the world with bases everywhere, and as far as I’m concerned, we need
to cut the bases down, we need to bring our people home, and if
we want to go on different places and do different – save different
countries – sure, go ahead and send them over there and let them do their
thing. I guess it’s the humanitarian thing to do, but we can only do so much,
and, ah, we’re getting stretched too thin and, ah, we cannot be a Big Brother
to everybody. Why do we have troops in Japan? Why do we have troops in, in, ah,
where was it – the Balkans? Q:
Kosovo? A:
Yea, Kosovo. In the Balkan areas. What are we doing with troops in
France, I think, and still Italy. I don’t think we have any troops left in,
ah, in Spain, maybe a few, have to wear, ah, civilian clothes there, I know
that. But we have troops scattered all over the world. We have a lot of troops
in South Korea. They’re talking about taking them out of South Koreans and
sending them over to, ah, ah, Iraq right now. We can’t continue. We’ve been
in South Korea now for 50 years and that’s absolutely ridiculous. We’ve got
to get our troops out of there. The army is too big. We’re getting to go
through another BRAC Committee [Base
Realignment and Closure]. The
Congress is going to see to it that our forces are reduced and, ah, I guess one
of these days we’re going to have to learn that, ah, we can’t do it all for
everybody else. Q:
Ah-huh. A:
That’s my own philosophy. Q:
Well, and that’s what the question asked. A:
Yea, it’s, ah, the only thing I think that, ah – I’m not saying
that they should, ah, start up the draft again. There have been talk of that.
But, ah, it is a wonderful, ah, training, ah, for people that, ah, are in the
late teens or early 20s to learn, ah, that there are jobs out there and you
might not like them, but you might as well learn to live with them and the
regimentation is good for a lot of people. I saw the army straighten out a lot
of people. Q:
Ah-huh. A:
And, ah, it strengthened me a lot. Q:
Ah-huh. You hear that a lot. That’s a comment that I personally hear a
lot. A:
Sure, sure. It’s good – it’s good for everybody. As a matter of
fact, I would even recommend to my two granddaughters, ah, that, ah, it would be
wonderful if they could do a stint in the service, but, ah, their grandmother
thinks that is terrible for me to eve talk like that. Q:
I guess you’re both entitled to your opinion and your granddaughters
will make up their own minds. (laughter) A:
The interesting thing about that – my wife also agrees with me that if
she sees, ah, some children going awry, astray, or whatever you want to call it,
it would be good for them to do a little stint in the army. And it – that is
so, so, so true. Q:
Ah-huh. Ah-huh. A:
It gives you a sense of patriotism and, ah, but, ah, as we grow older and
as we see that, ah, the, the wars that we’re in – even the World War IIs,
the Koreas, the Vietnam, and all this stuff – every bit of it is political one
way or the other. Q:
Oh, definitely. A:
And it is so, so, so unfortunate that a lot of the American people are
being used as pawns, ah, out in these wars. So, so unfortunate. Shouldn’t be
happening. We should not, ah, be, ah, putting our people at risk, ah, with their
lives. Lives are very precious, and, ah, yes, the price of the war – it always
has a price, and, ah, is it really worth it? I wonder at times. Q: Alright. Rose State College |